Are you sure this is Russian troops? I am not so sure, because Russian uniform is not even look like it should be. Different pants and vests are different color. Do you think such powerful country like Russia can not give normal uniform to their troops? Did you see their faces? Can you prove this is Russians? Did you know, that Georgian troops was planing (or maybe already done) to pretend like Russians rob and loot villages, film this, and show that Russian troops are robing villages? Don't be so sure, don't forget, that every country is trying to show their truth. To have a real picture of all this happening, you have to watch for both sides, not only Georgian, but and Russian. Don't forget about propaganda, and informational war.
I'm not forgetting about informational war, that's why I asked to Russian posters here, several times, to present any evidence, video, photo, etc... to prove what they say about Georgian soldiers. But luckily they could not provide me with any, just some programs and journalistic blablabla without any recorded materials. You say, such a big Country as Russia, yes, I don't believe, that such a big country as Russia would not show to the whole world if they really found borown soldier or Korean one among our army.
I cannot prove this was not Russian troops, but a lot of people noticed, that Georgian side falsified photos about injures, dead people, etc. One Georgian guy played a role of several guys. Look at this: http://glavnoe.nnm.ru/ih_informacionnaya_voiyna_fotki_iz_gruzii_1 at the first photo he sits near "killed" man, who was shot into his back (as we see). On a third photo you can see dead bodies. The guy we saw on first photo is not shot in his back. How can he be dead? Another "dead body" is holding a doctors hand. On fourth photo guy from the first photo dressed in other clothes, like he is another guy. Look at last pic. You see a boy with injured leg. Do you see the pain in his face? I don't.
This is not all pictures. I saw much more in Reuters page. I am not trying to prove something, I just want people to start thinking, and not be blind and believe what politics tell.
I would just address you after such a stupid comment as either a brainwashed or "na vsio sposobnii chelovek". Unfortunately I don't know exact translation of the last phrase in English.
Did you ever think to put those photos in reverse order???
Do not Russians turn the dead if they're laying on stomach, will they cry above the dead relative without turning him?
When one chose those pictures and put them in such order, why he did not chose the one where the guy "dressed in another clothes" takes off those clothes automatically, when sees dead brother? If they put that in right order you would easily read the story: 1. Guy seeng dead relative 2. taking clothes (reaction after shock) 3. turning back the dead 4. crying.
is anything strange in this?
The one who put these pictures in such order and made comments and all those who believe in this bullshit, are on the lowest level of moral.
Noone in the world loughs at the dead of even enemy.
As I told, I am not trying to prove something. "na vsio sposobnii chelovek" - the man who can everything. Yes, I am Russian, and I am proud of it. And shame should be not on all Russians, but on Russian (and Georgian, since they cannot control internal problems) government. Not every Russian citizen is amoral. But Georgians aren't so innocent as they are acting too.
Heh, this wor-by-word translation is not the same with content, you know that.
I also don't say that all Russians are like their government, I also have Russian friends and hopefully they do not support all the acts of Putin and Medvedev.
But those who make such things as the one, you showed me as an evidence how Georgians "play" in front of cameras, is too immoral, too much...
If Georgians fight in informational war so well, as you claim, Russians could do that better, you are much bigger, with much more people, money, etc...
We do not think that during the war all what is said is truth. Yes, all the parties have their own truth, but sometimes even among these confusing truth-s, there are obvious gaps and obvious unfairness.
That's why I will repeat, shame on you, Russia and Russians.
You say, that Georgians "play" in front of cameras is too immoral. Yes, it is. And I see you don't want to believe it. Me too. But I know the history, how Georgia was "doing" their politics from mid ages, I know they often were such...players. Georgian information war was successful only because U.S. stands behind them, behind all countries in NATO, and part of EU. They first reported about attack. Today very first report means everything, the one, who reports first - wins, everyone will listen to him. And no matter who was right and who was wrong. Then Georgia shouted a lot. No one listened to Russia's version, because it has too small informational units in western countries. Only one TV channel was Russia's version representative - Russia Today.
And if your knowledge in history is like this, that Russia has a little power in Europe to speak up and tell the "truth" to the World, less power than Georgia, even with the support of US... Than I would just advise you to read more abou the history of 20th Century and not only...
Yes, you#re right, the time will show us what was the approximate truth and who did what. BUT be sure, these revelations will never be against Georgian sovereignty...
What is bad about civilized world is that, nobody speaks about that 150 000 people were killed in IRAQ(10 times more than Lithuanians died in Siberia in exile), Now albanians live in Kosovo only from the middle of 20th century, now they were given with freedom. You think that US have moral right to do what they are doing. I think the more we know, the more we see. There is no justification to Saakashvilli atack of tshenvali. Then there is no justification to war in IRAQ. Are there justification of Russia conteraction? It is their choise, if they have done a mistake then they were not those who made a mistake first. But is USA a good and proper ally? Here i have doubts. There is no right in the war. But the first striked get punch back. Then he can seek support of sombody stronger.. I live in Lithuania and I see.. TOTAL SUBORDINATION to US ideology. I was watching TV program today, the hosts and most guests were supporting GEORGIA, bet there was one who told what was real on his mind, that because of unproper and dishonest US policy and monopoly of BBC and CNN unbalances information field (he called) HE WAS SILENCED.. Yes, that man told of that I BELIEVE IN, I BELIEVE IS TRUTH.. Then MY TRUTH was not to be told.. I do not blame much Georgians, but saakashvili should have tried other methods not war first. Then I believe that there will be no winners if Georgia an Russia loose ties.. as well as Ukraine. I believe that easterners have some advantages over westerners, hospitality kindness and etc. However if they will fight it will make them weaker. In western world you will always remain second best..
Seems "levas" is one of the russian propaganda victims or at least one of the creators :). And seems he don't have relatives in LIT who died or lived in exile (I have). And only 15000 died? How many were departed? I don't like Saakashvili and i dont like USA war in Iraq too. But believe, I dont want to go back to Soviet Union back too. And I will fight my right with gun if needed. Suppose 100% georgians think more or less the same.
To Anonymous: There are Russian Cossacks with very bad reputation :( Read Guardian Article: http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2008/aug/09/russia.georgia1 or oficial (!) osetia info: Don Cossacks are ready to fight! http://osinform.ru/dijest/5603-chechnja-pomozhet-zhivojj-silojj.html
I am very happy that everybody is happy about the agreement they came to in European Parlament, They are happy on Lithuanian National television, Sarcozy is prased because under his leadership all european countries signed the document. Putin is happy that the documetn is balanced and not critisizes too much. I AM VERY HAPPY TOO. This is a new reality World is accepting. TO WAR IS VERY EXPENSIVE. EVEN NOW Lithuanian Prime minister has invited his Belorussian collegue, they say there were very important changes in their policy (ha.. toward Belorussia !!! very good!!, then finally everyone will seize to fight and critizise EAST, and waste their psychological power through stress). Europeans also came to a point where thay understand there will by no "braking up countries" like Serbia (take Kosovo from them).. Because this act will receive a counteract like that in Georgia. Everybody is happy and this is good almost no info wars on CNN and BBC. I mean if anyone says Russia is bad, imerialystic, then I can counteract and ask about IRAQ, there are 1.2 million dead during a war, and then 90.000 (see iraqbodycount.org). What did George Bush said about Russian Agression.. NOTHING (or at least almost, Rise did a little) And then he kept his mouth shut. He cannot tell anything because he does not have any moral right, after his false evidence driver war, with so much casulties. Then there are, as I understand economic mechanisms that futher wars are not so much possible. Russia lost 7 billions in stocks, then after seeing the agreement EU Parl. came to eveyone is dependend on everyone. No one interested in wars, there must not be dissagreement or info wars. I saw on running line yesterday on Lithuanian national TV, about the research on rusophobia, were they wrote it is evident in Baltic states and Poland. But will Russia occupy Lithuania, even our President Adamkus told than in modern world this is not possible. Any tension is costy, for ex. will USA leave they NAVY at Black Sea, most probably not.. it is costy, (They better supply Georgia with boats or ships.) Will Lithuania or Georgia have benefits with not trading with Russia, not selling it goods in Russia? Definetly nobody will gain anything from that(lithuanian companies already blowing hors or tolling bells, this is "not good"). This does not mean I dont support georgians, I do, and it is a failure of Saakashvilli he started first, and UN because of not reacting to it. Ossetins and abchazes have been living there in conflict with Georgia all the time. If georgian authorities dont want to solve it peacefully, then I doubt O. and A. can belong to G. I dont know whether the decision of Russian president is revocable, but in this time, fighting will solve little. War solves nothing, now we will see what they will come to in Afganistan or Iraq.. they will solve nothing untill they will give absolutelly all power to local people, no influence at all, and if they leave peacefully and in good and honest manner, then iraqies or afganistans, may want to have business with US. If US will want to play a role and control destiny of these people, then they will receive resistence, like it was in Lithuania during soviet times... NO DIFFERENCE SOVIET TIMES-IRAQ UNDER US OCCUPATION (now they captured an iraqie deputy, which was condemned by parlament of IRAQ, here in lithuania we say about Soviet occupation but we support occupation of Iraq and say nothing about 1.2 million dead there).. One who hates Russia with all his heart may want to say that Russia is a federation of small countries and they all need freedom. Its like physics, if you want to split atom, you need to empose power on it enough to split it. Will US or nato countries have enough energy to split an atom "Russia". They may, but. This may cost too much power to be productive.. And it is not the world is going to. anyway we are going to one international identity, most probably a perston speaking english language (a little chinese, or russian, espaniol..) (english already does not belong to (no monopoly to) English people, or USA, but international language). Many countries now defend their rights in English. So lets not war, but learn english and speak..
I am watching this and understand that Russia didnt change. What was happening in 1939 in Baltic countries, is happening the same now in Georgia.
I heard a lot from my grandparents about how red army were robbing everything. The same what you can see in these movies. Just here it is more civilized, because there are some reporters... Try to imagine what would happen if they werent..
I can tell the same about you, western guy. USA starts a war whenever they want, and nobody tries to stop them. They are fighting in Afganistan, Iraq, now are preparing to start a war with Iran, and dont forget about financing a war in Kosovo. Yes, Russia did wrong, but don't forget about USA. Or it is normal, that USA are killing? Thank you for your post.
Some info: during the Soviet Union Era, the soviets killed over 40 to 60 million of people. There never was any larger crime to people. Interestingly and unfortunately, this crime and the criminals were never punished. I live in Lithuania and I can say that anyone who states being from my country and supporting Russia - are russians and just due to historical circumstances have Lithuanian citizenship. I am really sorry that our government cannot send them home, to dear sweet Russia. I'm for a world without fear to be occupied!!!
If anyone to give exact number for this, because i SUSPECT this is not true numbers. Some say there was 100 million, others 40-60, others 20 million. When I ask to give numbers and prove it, and I say look wikipedia under the heading GULAG, there is written that total amount of people killed is 1.76 million in GULAGS in SIberia of all nationalities (where lithuanians are 3 or 4th from the end) which is less than war in Vietnam casulties (2million). THey say it is more, but I say where is the proof? They say there was a GLOLODOMOR, and 20 millions died, but if you look at wikipedia they say according to demographs - 2.2, historians -3.6 million(only in political debates-20millions, they are the least objective). I think tens of millions is USED for PROPAGANDA. I SAY NO MATTERwhat, they wont speak about VIETNAM, HIROSIMA NAGASAKI, IRAQ (according to UK company's survey the casulties could be 1.2(or 700 000- 1 500 000) during the wartime, and then almost 100 000(iraqbodycount.org) after the war of iraq people then Afganistan is 1/2 of that. It is about 500-600 times the casulties of 9/11. ISN'T IT FUNNY EVERYBODY SPEAKS ABOUT ATROCITIES OF STALINIZM: about 40-60 million, what is far from the truth(dont apply here for Black book of Communism, which is unreliable PULP here, historians say numbers exceedes 10x the reality)... So you may say about Stalinism but dont forget that lithuania participates in a war in Iraq, in which almost 100x times more people died than died of lithuanians in Siberia, but do you hear it on TV or read in the Internet???
2 last After russians came to Lithuania our there were killed over ~300 000 people.
In our country lives 3 000 000.
Look at the numbers of all soviet union number of people, and you will get the aproximate number of killed people.
And then you could count again, those whos life were destroyed, who saw how russians were killing theyr parents, brothers, sisters.
cuting eyes, legs, arms, putting them in the center of cities, forcing all people to watch at it and if you start to cry you were killed too, because it means, that you knew them.
Try to look at how many people were killed by Sadam Husein. If USA wouldnt removed him, in this period he would be killed more people then this war. (I am against the war in Iraq.)
I found new research of the GULAGS, working camps, with graphs.Just very curious :)"the title here SOVIET REPRESSIONS, find it www.uwm.edu/Course/448-343/index4.html ..Here what it is said there: The GULAG was never primarily an extermination regime, as was the Nazi system targeting Jews in 1941-45. Most of the approximately 1 million Soviets who died in it from 1934-53 perished from neglect, exposure, malnutrition, disease, and/or overwork. Certain locations had (still largely unsubstantiated) reputations as "death camps." Then on the official webpage of lithuanians sent to Siberia, they say that the ammount of people expelled, sums up to 300 000, the mean death ratio according historians is 5 % which is about 15000 of lithuanians. Then regarding the atrocities you mentioned.. :) they have a collection of various photos of partisans captured or killed. Non of them had limbs cut off, or eyes taken out. Look at the graphs at the article, see wikipedia under heading GULAG. Victims mentioned in the article - about 1 million, wikiepdia -1,76 million. You may claim 2 million, but it is the same ammount of killed people during Vietnam WAR - 2 million. I dont know where people take numbers of 20-100 million victims... MOST PROBABLY IT IS THE RESULT OF Propaganda, THis is how politicians can sustain their electorate - Looking FOr ENEMIES, this is what happening in Lithuania. The same reason the Bush was reelected, because everybode was frightened by BinLaden, more than 200 million people where scared of one man.. This kind of ideology will not sustain for long. I have read articles about the reason of the failure of American economy, the main reasons are greed and enormous fraud. Which dont stop there, it also flowering in the issue of IRAQ, and etc. How that one poor man BINLADEN, was able to scare so much one country, that they started the war which took 500-600 times more lives than 9/11/2001, (100 limes more than of Lithuanians in Siberia) THEN WHO IS TERRORIST NO1? BINLADEN? One may say YES, he started first, AMERICA HAD TO RESPOND..wasnt that respond EXCESSIVE (as Russia is being blamed, in GEORGIA, Georgians live near Russia, And usually clever people do not pay much attention to the nationality, I dont think there were anytime so much hate as IRAQIS can feel towards Americans now), and EVEN did they participate in 9/11/2001. And the crimes Saddam Hussein was suspected in, I can bu wrong but as I remember they suspected him in genocide of 2000(in one town withe chemicals) and total ammount 10 000? During the first 2 weeks in the opperation prior to IRAQ - in the Afganistan the twice ammount of that 20 000 were killed..this is from the article of two journalists about Cenzorship in America written in 2003, you may google for it, I didnt bookmark it. So the point I wanted to say that, everyone should give numbers with proofs. And you mentioned that 300 000 of the population of 3 millions were killed. THe population of the time of soviet uninion was less than 200 million, then you mean that 20 million were killed. the ratio is 1/10 but then you should provide the proof of that. I find that there was 15-20 thousands that is 1/200 of population, then is 1-2 millions for entire USSR, but not 20-40 or more millions 40 would be 1/5 of all population). And as I said there are evidences of serious tortures, of cutting of the limbs, taking out the eyes, this clames are too serious, thus evidences are a must.
You say that the number of killed people is PROPAGANDA?
Sorry, but propaganda didnt kill my grandparents and their brothers and sisters, propaganda didnt kill my friends grandgrandparens and their relativis. soviet army did.
Every man in Lithuania has lost many relatives and if you try to count, you will get bigger number then 300 000. It is not the numbers in your books or newsppapers, it is reality.
You didnt see pictures of destroyed partizans? Try to imagine who could make them in such situation... But it has left in our grandparents memory and will be never forgotten.
Soviet government try to hide from all that there were war in Lithuania in 1945-1954 (yes, war) till now.
http://www.genocid.lt/tvs/image.php?id=0;1;149 it is one of left examples. You start to cry - you die.
Well, at least people are speaking and discussing.
The Russian side is on defensive here, as I see. The Anti-Russian is very offensive, and only gives accusations.
I would defend russians, couse they try to understand, and the other side doesnt seem to make any effort. Can You say anything not bad about russians? Anyone from anti-russian? Simply no. There's axiom(from "Grandfathers" as some stated here), that russians are bad. The "russian" side at least doesn't have this axoim, that "all western is bad" (I dont even say georgian, cause "we say Georgia, but we mean USA").
And about killings. The BAD crimes were facilitated under command of Mr. Stalin (guess nationality). After his death, russians didn't occupy any other country (except Afganistan, surely). I can state, that 99% of killings and occupations during Soviet period were performed by him. He even killed russians(most of).
Nowadays, did MedPutin really do such things. Quantatively, less than Churchill. Did they stay in Georgia after counterattack/occupation? (And please dont play with fact that nobody except them recognize that Osetia is Georgian). I dont believe they can let themselves attack anyone, especially in NATO.
I love Russian people but russian politics, it's not right. That country becoming more and more autharitaristic I'm not going to try and prove any thing to any one. Bottom line facts : Russian army in Tunel in Georgia before Sakashvili launched an a attack 1. 2 What Russian army was doing in Georgian teritory for so long ? What they there doing in Gori and Poti ?. 3 I don;t mind Abhazia being independent country it was an old issue. But what Russia did in south osetia wasn't exeptable. Another issue why everyone can go to Georgia and I mean everyone and film and take interviews and not in south osetia? Why not? Why Russians not allow independent journalist there? What do they have to hide ? I'm not saying all russian army was bad. I think Vostok did a good and fair fight. But other bandits hiding under Russian flag, it;s sad.
One more thing I like to ask Russian what they think if Ingushetian people will get Chinies or US passports and going to ask for seperate country. Will they going to be good enough and let them ?
Oh yeah, ERNESTAS, of course. Georgians stage everything for informational war and Russians could not stage even one thing what they blame Georgians in...
Anonymous of Oct.1, 6:37 Thank you for your cincere comment. i appreciate your opinion, even though can not agree with the idea of independence of Abkhazia, with the same reason as you mention towards Osetia. I would also rise the issue of Ingushetia, though I'm surprised why 99% of Russian people do not think about it... or maybe about the independence of real Osetia (called North Osetia, being a part of Russia who knows why)... Sometimes I have a feeling that most of Russians have not knowledge of their own history, or mostly they know only what they are taught with the books of "history" and I understand its not easy to know the real history of such a huge country and of all its parts...
That's why unfortunately everyone in Russia easily speaks about history of Georgians and even Abkhazians and Osetians, because they have put it in their minds from TV by government, and unfortunately the people like you, who'll at least try to think wisely and regret about what happens, and try to watch to the things from another side as well, such people are in the least minority...
Another point that I would like to rise is: Only country that really benefited from that attack was Iran. Cause israel was planing an attack on Iran from Georgia. Let's just think who trades with Iran ? Hmm Russians maybe / Regards Vitas
Obvious noncence, amateur guess, no way IRAN benefits, the situation might stimulate invitation of Georgia to NATO, then Georgia, becomes new plazza-de-arme, for the forthcomming operation, (which most probably would impoverish US) wel, but lets get real here.. here again in LITHUANIA, I can tell you a lot about our successful entry to EU. 1.They dont allow to extend the term for closure of Ignalina Nuclear Plant, we must close it until 2010, it will be an enourmouse shock for the economy. NOW, having patrolled our eastern borders, they wont do it after 2011 we will have to do it on our cost. Lithuanian politicians wants completely brake with Russian GAS (they declare it, but on the other hand they hope Russia will open the pipline called Friendship.. Lithuanian politicians dont want to separate ideology from politics and economics.) They want to win ideologically, politically even if we will loose economically.. NO WAY GEORGIA will become plaza de arme for NATO, because the arosen tension will cost much for both sides, .. they will need to rise Millitary expenditure, or just as they will do here in Lithuania, they will accept Georgia, but on the other hand it will be a tool to silent Saakashvilly, BECAUSE. HERE IN LITHUANIA , NOW EVERYBODY SPEAKS THAT EU IS THE SAME AS CCCP, !!!!:) If you ask anyone in his forties, you will get a their answer of dissapointment ".. we cant prolong the operation of nuclear plant.. yes EU becomes as CCCP.." Regarding NATO.. Georgia will be subbordinated to NATO headquarters. NATO will NOT allow Georgians (or let me say lithuanians..) to WAR.. And who really want to war.. I don't, because I imagine what is the cost. If someone want to measure his strength with RUSSIA he may do that, I wont.. its suicide, and 2nd - no much of moral right, and if you strike first then.. you are the BAD GUY!!!
The world is becoming THE ONE.. but we will still to face conflicts including those for resources, for ecology. Even PRO-US Reuters, gives the article I provided below... What is the difference, if not the teritorial dependence, but economical starting to play the most important role, because soon the rules will become the same everywhere, we shall live in CCCP which will be not like it was but more "ECONOMICALLY LITERAL" and without IDEOLOGY. It would be like .. Union of Councils, of Republics of socially oriented economics., OK this was SEMI-SERIOUS.. but it should be on humankind agenda anyway.. POLITICIANS SHOULD TALK, BUT WHAT IS A DUTY OF ORDINARY PEOPLE is REFUSE TO FIGHT WARS Ok..about the decline of US influence you can read here:
U.S. grapples with power dive amid financial crisis Thu Oct 2, 2008 1:25pm EDT
By Sue Pleming - Analysis
WASHINGTON (Reuters) - It may be too soon to write off U.S. economic clout as Germany's finance minister did last month, but experts say a power realignment is taking place in any event with U.S. credibility and popularity at a low.
The notion of America's status as a global superpower has been dented by the financial meltdown but foreign and economic policy experts say U.S. omnipotence had been exaggerated.
"The U.S. remains the dominant global power in military terms but the growing economic clout of nations like Russia, China, India and Brazil is changing that dynamic," said Stephen Flanagan of the Center for Strategic and International Studies, a Washington think-tank.
"The global nature of the economy inevitably means that the United States can't be as dominant as it once was," he said.
How fast the financial fallout, kicked off by a credit crunch, will further diminish U.S. influence is unclear but experts say Washington's response, including a proposed $700 billion bailout plan, will reverberate for decades to come.
"The United States will lose its superpower status in the world financial system. The ... system will become more multi-polar," said German Finance Minister Peer Steinbrueck.
So-called U.S. objective or "hard power" -- military and economic might -- are unlikely to take an immediate hit as it will take a while for U.S. military and other budgets to be affected, said Thomas Carothers, a vice president of the Carnegie Endowment for International Peace.
The immediate impact is more likely to be on Washington's "soft power" as nations no longer look to the United States as a political or economic model.
"Throughout this decade there has been greater questioning of America's political model and now you add to this the sudden crash and there is a deep questioning of America's economic model too," Carothers said.
Academic Francis Fukuyama said with the rise of China, Russia and others, the world was no longer seen in a "unipolar" way where the United States was dominant.
"There will be a generally more multipolar world where you don't have superpowers like in the Cold War," said Fukuyama, a professor at Johns Hopkins University.
One area where the United States would likely lose out in the years to come, he said, was in the "realm of ideas" and innovation, an area where the United States had been dominant but where others are now surging ahead.
Walter Russell Mead of the Council on Foreign Relations said there was an exaggerated view of U.S. power in the 1980s and 1990s and predictions of a U.S. demise were overblown. "The pendulum has swung and now people have an exaggerated view of how it has declined," he said.
CREDIBILITY GAP
Outgoing U.S. administrations usually suffer from a lack of leverage in their waning months and the financial crisis coincides with the Bush administration's attempts to wrap up key issues such as the North Korean nuclear program and to get an elusive Palestinian statehood deal.
Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice has insisted her ability to "do diplomacy" has not been affected by the financial crisis, but the meltdown was a dominant theme during her time at the U.N. General Assembly last week.
Even before the crisis erupted, opinion polls had shown U.S. credibility and popularity down, especially following the decision to invade Iraq in 2003 and topple Saddam Hussein.
The opening of Guantanamo Bay detention center for al Qaeda and Taliban suspects and the Abu Ghraib prison abuse scandal tarnished the image of Washington as champion of human rights.
The Bush administration's democracy agenda has become a source of suspicion, particularly in the Arab world where it is seen as a cover for trying to overthrow governments not seen as toeing the U.S. line.
"The United States is perceived in many countries as almost a rogue state, one that is using unparalleled power to create 'freedom'," Flanagan said.
A U.S. diplomat said he had noticed a difference in how other countries viewed the United States and it made "doing diplomacy" more difficult.
"We have been pursuing a foreign policy which is so arrogant that people don't want to engage us, except for those allies who want to shape our views ... or those who are frightened of us," said the diplomat, who asked not to be identified because his comments were sensitive.
The next U.S. administration -- whether led by Republican Sen. John McCain or Democratic Sen. Barack Obama -- will have to take concrete gestures early on to turn a tide of suspicion, several analysts said.
Foreign policy expert Jon Alterman of the CSIS, said the United States was still the country that mattered most in world affairs even if its power had diminished.
"While the United States is less in control, no one else is in control either," he said.
Hello! I came to this page by the link from delfi.lt comments on the article about Adamkus' comments of Saakashvili visit in Lithuania. At first, it's nice that I found people from several countries with different attitudes commenting here. I am not an expert in analysing posted videos and won't comment on them, but I wish to give some remarks about your comments.
1. I understand and can not disagree with both positions of Aleksej and Katiee. I like Aleksej inviting for a thought of not one sided view of the recent Russian-Georgia conflict. And I also support the desire of Katiee(though a bit emotional: "shame on you, Russia and Russians") to show how Russia bad in its actions is.
2. Actually, this was what made me to write a comment: "I live in Lithuania and I can say that anyone who states being from my country and supporting Russia - are russians and just due to historical circumstances have Lithuanian citizenship." by Anonymous in September 12, 2008 2:25 AM. and "Seems "levas" is one of the russian propaganda victims" by Giedrius. I am lithuanian and I am against the imperialistic intentions and actions of Russia. But neither Levas, nor other anonymous are supporting Russia in their comments. Please, read again and try to understand what they want to say. Your sayings are an examples of russophobia in Lithuania, which prohibits clearly to think and see things.
3. I like very much the points raised by Anonymous September 19, 2008 2:42 AM.
And about Georgia-Russia conflict I agree with Anonymous in October 1, 2008 6:37 AM. Adding to: "Russian army in Tunel in Georgia before Sakashvili launched an a attack" - is still not a justification and Saakashvili made a mistake (with respect to georgians and ossetins) by launching an attack.
It would be interesting to discuss, was it at all Saakashvili's own decision to attack. And, if yes or no, what were the goals?
To conclude, it is very sad, that Russia is still having its imperialistic syndrome and wounds by not being a Soviet Union.
Agree: "POLITICIANS SHOULD TALK, BUT WHAT IS A DUTY OF ORDINARY PEOPLE is REFUSE TO FIGHT WARS"
Thank you very much for your interest and comment.
None of us,I mean non of interested parties can be impartial, so you and the people from outside, can judge lots of things and then this makes history.
We hope that the history will not refuse the current status of Georgia as of the state being permanent victim of "great" neighbour, and I also hope that the history will CHANGE this status at last...
30 comments:
Are you sure this is Russian troops? I am not so sure, because Russian uniform is not even look like it should be. Different pants and vests are different color. Do you think such powerful country like Russia can not give normal uniform to their troops?
Did you see their faces? Can you prove this is Russians?
Did you know, that Georgian troops was planing (or maybe already done) to pretend like Russians rob and loot villages, film this, and show that Russian troops are robing villages?
Don't be so sure, don't forget, that every country is trying to show their truth. To have a real picture of all this happening, you have to watch for both sides, not only Georgian, but and Russian.
Don't forget about propaganda, and informational war.
I'm not forgetting about informational war, that's why I asked to Russian posters here, several times, to present any evidence, video, photo, etc... to prove what they say about Georgian soldiers.
But luckily they could not provide me with any, just some programs and journalistic blablabla without any recorded materials.
You say, such a big Country as Russia, yes, I don't believe, that such a big country as Russia would not show to the whole world if they really found borown soldier or Korean one among our army.
I cannot prove this was not Russian troops, but a lot of people noticed, that Georgian side falsified photos about injures, dead people, etc. One Georgian guy played a role of several guys. Look at this: http://glavnoe.nnm.ru/ih_informacionnaya_voiyna_fotki_iz_gruzii_1
at the first photo he sits near "killed" man, who was shot into his back (as we see).
On a third photo you can see dead bodies. The guy we saw on first photo is not shot in his back. How can he be dead? Another "dead body" is holding a doctors hand.
On fourth photo guy from the first photo dressed in other clothes, like he is another guy.
Look at last pic. You see a boy with injured leg. Do you see the pain in his face? I don't.
This is not all pictures. I saw much more in Reuters page. I am not trying to prove something, I just want people to start thinking, and not be blind and believe what politics tell.
I would just address you after such a stupid comment as either a brainwashed or "na vsio sposobnii chelovek". Unfortunately I don't know exact translation of the last phrase in English.
Did you ever think to put those photos in reverse order???
Do not Russians turn the dead if they're laying on stomach, will they cry above the dead relative without turning him?
When one chose those pictures and put them in such order, why he did not chose the one where the guy "dressed in another clothes" takes off those clothes automatically, when sees dead brother? If they put that in right order you would easily read the story:
1. Guy seeng dead relative
2. taking clothes (reaction after shock)
3. turning back the dead
4. crying.
is anything strange in this?
The one who put these pictures in such order and made comments and all those who believe in this bullshit, are on the lowest level of moral.
Noone in the world loughs at the dead of even enemy.
Shame on you, Dear Russians!!!
As I told, I am not trying to prove something.
"na vsio sposobnii chelovek" - the man who can everything.
Yes, I am Russian, and I am proud of it. And shame should be not on all Russians, but on Russian (and Georgian, since they cannot control internal problems) government. Not every Russian citizen is amoral.
But Georgians aren't so innocent as they are acting too.
Heh, this wor-by-word translation is not the same with content, you know that.
I also don't say that all Russians are like their government, I also have Russian friends and hopefully they do not support all the acts of Putin and Medvedev.
But those who make such things as the one, you showed me as an evidence how Georgians "play" in front of cameras, is too immoral, too much...
If Georgians fight in informational war so well, as you claim, Russians could do that better, you are much bigger, with much more people, money, etc...
We do not think that during the war all what is said is truth. Yes, all the parties have their own truth, but sometimes even among these confusing truth-s, there are obvious gaps and obvious unfairness.
That's why I will repeat, shame on you, Russia and Russians.
You say, that Georgians "play" in front of cameras is too immoral. Yes, it is. And I see you don't want to believe it. Me too. But I know the history, how Georgia was "doing" their politics from mid ages, I know they often were such...players.
Georgian information war was successful only because U.S. stands behind them, behind all countries in NATO, and part of EU. They first reported about attack. Today very first report means everything, the one, who reports first - wins, everyone will listen to him. And no matter who was right and who was wrong. Then Georgia shouted a lot. No one listened to Russia's version, because it has too small informational units in western countries. Only one TV channel was Russia's version representative - Russia Today.
Be neutral, soon all the truth will be shown ;)
Now playing with words? Parts of sentences?
Ha ha
Another proof of who plays...
Go on like that, you'll succeed.
And if your knowledge in history is like this, that Russia has a little power in Europe to speak up and tell the "truth" to the World, less power than Georgia, even with the support of US... Than I would just advise you to read more abou the history of 20th Century and not only...
Yes, you#re right, the time will show us what was the approximate truth and who did what. BUT be sure, these revelations will never be against Georgian sovereignty...
Good luck.
This is 'Kazaki' - legal bandits in Russia. Army avoid doing dirty work. They use legal o semi legal troups. Its normal business in this region.
Excuse me, I want to add
What is bad about civilized world is that, nobody speaks about that 150 000 people were killed in IRAQ(10 times more than Lithuanians died in Siberia in exile), Now albanians live in Kosovo only from the middle of 20th century, now they were given with freedom. You think that US have moral right to do what they are doing. I think the more we know, the more we see. There is no justification to Saakashvilli atack of tshenvali. Then there is no justification to war in IRAQ. Are there justification of Russia conteraction? It is their choise, if they have done a mistake then they were not those who made a mistake first. But is USA a good and proper ally? Here i have doubts. There is no right in the war. But the first striked get punch back. Then he can seek support of sombody stronger.. I live in Lithuania and I see.. TOTAL SUBORDINATION to US ideology. I was watching TV program today, the hosts and most guests were supporting GEORGIA, bet there was one who told what was real on his mind, that because of unproper and dishonest US policy and monopoly of BBC and CNN unbalances information field (he called) HE WAS SILENCED.. Yes, that man told of that I BELIEVE IN, I BELIEVE IS TRUTH.. Then MY TRUTH was not to be told.. I do not blame much Georgians, but saakashvili should have tried other methods not war first. Then I believe that there will be no winners if Georgia an Russia loose ties.. as well as Ukraine. I believe that easterners have some advantages over westerners, hospitality kindness and etc. However if they will fight it will make them weaker. In western world you will always remain second best..
Seems "levas" is one of the russian propaganda victims or at least one of the creators :). And seems he don't have relatives in LIT who died or lived in exile (I have). And only 15000 died? How many were departed? I don't like Saakashvili and i dont like USA war in Iraq too. But believe, I dont want to go back to Soviet Union back too. And I will fight my right with gun if needed. Suppose 100% georgians think more or less the same.
To Anonymous:
There are Russian Cossacks with very bad reputation :( Read Guardian Article: http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2008/aug/09/russia.georgia1
or oficial (!) osetia info: Don Cossacks are ready to fight!
http://osinform.ru/dijest/5603-chechnja-pomozhet-zhivojj-silojj.html
I am very happy that everybody is happy about the agreement they came to in European Parlament, They are happy on Lithuanian National television, Sarcozy is prased because under his leadership all european countries signed the document. Putin is happy that the documetn is balanced and not critisizes too much. I AM VERY HAPPY TOO. This is a new reality World is accepting. TO WAR IS VERY EXPENSIVE. EVEN NOW Lithuanian Prime minister has invited his Belorussian collegue, they say there were very important changes in their policy (ha.. toward Belorussia !!! very good!!, then finally everyone will seize to fight and critizise EAST, and waste their psychological power through stress). Europeans also came to a point where thay understand there will by no "braking up countries" like Serbia (take Kosovo from them).. Because this act will receive a counteract like that in Georgia. Everybody is happy and this is good almost no info wars on CNN and BBC. I mean if anyone says Russia is bad, imerialystic, then I can counteract and ask about IRAQ, there are 1.2 million dead during a war, and then 90.000 (see iraqbodycount.org). What did George Bush said about Russian Agression.. NOTHING (or at least almost, Rise did a little) And then he kept his mouth shut. He cannot tell anything because he does not have any moral right, after his false evidence driver war, with so much casulties. Then there are, as I understand economic mechanisms that futher wars are not so much possible. Russia lost 7 billions in stocks, then after seeing the agreement EU Parl. came to eveyone is dependend on everyone. No one interested in wars, there must not be dissagreement or info wars. I saw on running line yesterday on Lithuanian national TV, about the research on rusophobia, were they wrote it is evident in Baltic states and Poland. But will Russia occupy Lithuania, even our President Adamkus told than in modern world this is not possible. Any tension is costy, for ex. will USA leave they NAVY at Black Sea, most probably not.. it is costy, (They better supply Georgia with boats or ships.) Will Lithuania or Georgia have benefits with not trading with Russia, not selling it goods in Russia? Definetly nobody will gain anything from that(lithuanian companies already blowing hors or tolling bells, this is "not good"). This does not mean I dont support georgians, I do, and it is a failure of Saakashvilli he started first, and UN because of not reacting to it. Ossetins and abchazes have been living there in conflict with Georgia all the time. If georgian authorities dont want to solve it peacefully, then I doubt O. and A. can belong to G. I dont know whether the decision of Russian president is revocable, but in this time, fighting will solve little. War solves nothing, now we will see what they will come to in Afganistan or Iraq.. they will solve nothing untill they will give absolutelly all power to local people, no influence at all, and if they leave peacefully and in good and honest manner, then iraqies or afganistans, may want to have business with US. If US will want to play a role and control destiny of these people, then they will receive resistence, like it was in Lithuania during soviet times... NO DIFFERENCE SOVIET TIMES-IRAQ UNDER US OCCUPATION (now they captured an iraqie deputy, which was condemned by parlament of IRAQ, here in lithuania we say about Soviet occupation but we support occupation of Iraq and say nothing about 1.2 million dead there).. One who hates Russia with all his heart may want to say that Russia is a federation of small countries and they all need freedom. Its like physics, if you want to split atom, you need to empose power on it enough to split it. Will US or nato countries have enough energy to split an atom "Russia". They may, but. This may cost too much power to be productive.. And it is not the world is going to. anyway we are going to one international identity, most probably a perston speaking english language (a little chinese, or russian, espaniol..) (english already does not belong to (no monopoly to) English people, or USA, but international language). Many countries now defend their rights in English. So lets not war, but learn english and speak..
I am watching this and understand that Russia didnt change. What was happening in 1939 in Baltic countries, is happening the same now in Georgia.
I heard a lot from my grandparents about how red army were robbing everything. The same what you can see in these movies. Just here it is more civilized, because there are some reporters... Try to imagine what would happen if they werent..
We will not forget that.
Dear Anonymous,
I can tell the same about you, western guy. USA starts a war whenever they want, and nobody tries to stop them. They are fighting in Afganistan, Iraq, now are preparing to start a war with Iran, and dont forget about financing a war in Kosovo. Yes, Russia did wrong, but don't forget about USA. Or it is normal, that USA are killing?
Thank you for your post.
Some info: during the Soviet Union Era, the soviets killed over 40 to 60 million of people. There never was any larger crime to people. Interestingly and unfortunately, this crime and the criminals were never punished.
I live in Lithuania and I can say that anyone who states being from my country and supporting Russia - are russians and just due to historical circumstances have Lithuanian citizenship. I am really sorry that our government cannot send them home, to dear sweet Russia.
I'm for a world without fear to be occupied!!!
If anyone to give exact number for this, because i SUSPECT this is not true numbers. Some say there was 100 million, others 40-60, others 20 million. When I ask to give numbers and prove it, and I say look wikipedia under the heading GULAG, there is written that total amount of people killed is 1.76 million in GULAGS in SIberia of all nationalities (where lithuanians are 3 or 4th from the end) which is less than war in Vietnam casulties (2million). THey say it is more, but I say where is the proof? They say there was a GLOLODOMOR, and 20 millions died, but if you look at wikipedia they say according to demographs - 2.2, historians -3.6 million(only in political debates-20millions, they are the least objective). I think tens of millions is USED for PROPAGANDA. I SAY NO MATTERwhat, they wont speak about VIETNAM, HIROSIMA NAGASAKI, IRAQ (according to UK company's survey the casulties could be 1.2(or 700 000- 1 500 000) during the wartime, and then almost 100 000(iraqbodycount.org) after the war of iraq people then Afganistan is 1/2 of that. It is about 500-600 times the casulties of 9/11. ISN'T IT FUNNY EVERYBODY SPEAKS ABOUT ATROCITIES OF STALINIZM: about 40-60 million, what is far from the truth(dont apply here for Black book of Communism, which is unreliable PULP here, historians say numbers exceedes 10x the reality)... So you may say about Stalinism but dont forget that lithuania participates in a war in Iraq, in which almost 100x times more people died than died of lithuanians in Siberia, but do you hear it on TV or read in the Internet???
2 last After russians came to Lithuania our there were killed over ~300 000 people.
In our country lives 3 000 000.
Look at the numbers of all soviet union number of people, and you will get the aproximate number of killed people.
And then you could count again, those whos life were destroyed, who saw how russians were killing theyr parents, brothers, sisters.
cuting eyes, legs, arms, putting them in the center of cities, forcing all people to watch at it and if you start to cry you were killed too, because it means, that you knew them.
Try to look at how many people were killed by Sadam Husein. If USA wouldnt removed him, in this period he would be killed more people then this war. (I am against the war in Iraq.)
I found new research of the GULAGS, working camps, with graphs.Just very curious :)"the title here SOVIET REPRESSIONS, find it www.uwm.edu/Course/448-343/index4.html ..Here what it is said there: The GULAG was never primarily an extermination regime, as was the Nazi system targeting Jews in 1941-45. Most of the approximately 1 million Soviets who died in it from 1934-53 perished from neglect, exposure, malnutrition, disease, and/or overwork. Certain locations had (still largely unsubstantiated) reputations as "death camps." Then on the official webpage of lithuanians sent to Siberia, they say that the ammount of people expelled, sums up to 300 000, the mean death ratio according historians is 5 % which is about 15000 of lithuanians. Then regarding the atrocities you mentioned.. :) they have a collection of various photos of partisans captured or killed. Non of them had limbs cut off, or eyes taken out. Look at the graphs at the article, see wikipedia under heading GULAG. Victims mentioned in the article - about 1 million, wikiepdia -1,76 million. You may claim 2 million, but it is the same ammount of killed people during Vietnam WAR - 2 million. I dont know where people take numbers of 20-100 million victims... MOST PROBABLY IT IS THE RESULT OF Propaganda, THis is how politicians can sustain their electorate - Looking FOr ENEMIES, this is what happening in Lithuania. The same reason the Bush was reelected, because everybode was frightened by BinLaden, more than 200 million people where scared of one man.. This kind of ideology will not sustain for long. I have read articles about the reason of the failure of American economy, the main reasons are greed and enormous fraud. Which dont stop there, it also flowering in the issue of IRAQ, and etc. How that one poor man BINLADEN, was able to scare so much one country, that they started the war which took 500-600 times more lives than 9/11/2001, (100 limes more than of Lithuanians in Siberia) THEN WHO IS TERRORIST NO1? BINLADEN? One may say YES, he started first, AMERICA HAD TO RESPOND..wasnt that respond EXCESSIVE (as Russia is being blamed, in GEORGIA, Georgians live near Russia, And usually clever people do not pay much attention to the nationality, I dont think there were anytime so much hate as IRAQIS can feel towards Americans now), and EVEN did they participate in 9/11/2001. And the crimes Saddam Hussein was suspected in, I can bu wrong but as I remember they suspected him in genocide of 2000(in one town withe chemicals) and total ammount 10 000? During the first 2 weeks in the opperation prior to IRAQ - in the Afganistan the twice ammount of that 20 000 were killed..this is from the article of two journalists about Cenzorship in America written in 2003, you may google for it, I didnt bookmark it. So the point I wanted to say that, everyone should give numbers with proofs. And you mentioned that 300 000 of the population of 3 millions were killed. THe population of the time of soviet uninion was less than 200 million, then you mean that 20 million were killed. the ratio is 1/10 but then you should provide the proof of that. I find that there was 15-20 thousands that is 1/200 of population, then is 1-2 millions for entire USSR, but not 20-40 or more millions 40 would be 1/5 of all population). And as I said there are evidences of serious tortures, of cutting of the limbs, taking out the eyes, this clames are too serious, thus evidences are a must.
You say that the number of killed people is PROPAGANDA?
Sorry, but propaganda didnt kill my grandparents and their brothers and sisters, propaganda didnt kill my friends grandgrandparens and their relativis. soviet army did.
Every man in Lithuania has lost many relatives and if you try to count, you will get bigger number then 300 000. It is not the numbers in your books or newsppapers, it is reality.
You didnt see pictures of destroyed partizans? Try to imagine who could make them in such situation...
But it has left in our grandparents memory and will be never forgotten.
Soviet government try to hide from all that there were war in Lithuania in 1945-1954 (yes, war) till now.
http://www.genocid.lt/tvs/image.php?id=0;1;149 it is one of left examples. You start to cry - you die.
Well, at least people are speaking and discussing.
The Russian side is on defensive here, as I see. The Anti-Russian is very offensive, and only gives accusations.
I would defend russians, couse they try to understand, and the other side doesnt seem to make any effort. Can You say anything not bad about russians? Anyone from anti-russian? Simply no. There's axiom(from "Grandfathers" as some stated here), that russians are bad.
The "russian" side at least doesn't have this axoim, that "all western is bad" (I dont even say georgian, cause "we say Georgia, but we mean USA").
And about killings. The BAD crimes were facilitated under command of Mr. Stalin (guess nationality). After his death, russians didn't occupy any other country (except Afganistan, surely). I can state, that 99% of killings and occupations during Soviet period were performed by him. He even killed russians(most of).
Nowadays, did MedPutin really do such things. Quantatively, less than Churchill. Did they stay in Georgia after counterattack/occupation? (And please dont play with fact that nobody except them recognize that Osetia is Georgian). I dont believe they can let themselves attack anyone, especially in NATO.
But I probably speak with walls.
looks like georgean soldiers ,but not like russians!
I love Russian people but russian politics, it's not right. That country becoming more and more autharitaristic
I'm not going to try and prove any thing to any one.
Bottom line facts : Russian army in Tunel in Georgia before Sakashvili launched an a attack 1. 2 What Russian army was doing in Georgian teritory for so long ? What they there doing in Gori and Poti ?.
3 I don;t mind Abhazia being independent country it was an old issue. But what Russia did in south osetia wasn't exeptable.
Another issue why everyone can go to Georgia and I mean everyone and film and take interviews and not in south osetia? Why not? Why Russians not allow independent journalist there?
What do they have to hide ?
I'm not saying all russian army was bad. I think Vostok did a good and fair fight. But other bandits hiding under Russian flag, it;s sad.
One more thing I like to ask Russian what they think if Ingushetian people will get Chinies or US passports and going to ask for seperate country. Will they going to be good enough and let them ?
Oh yeah, ERNESTAS, of course.
Georgians stage everything for informational war and Russians could not stage even one thing what they blame Georgians in...
Anonymous of Oct.1, 6:37
Thank you for your cincere comment. i appreciate your opinion, even though can not agree with the idea of independence of Abkhazia, with the same reason as you mention towards Osetia.
I would also rise the issue of Ingushetia, though I'm surprised why 99% of Russian people do not think about it... or maybe about the independence of real Osetia (called North Osetia, being a part of Russia who knows why)...
Sometimes I have a feeling that most of Russians have not knowledge of their own history, or mostly they know only what they are taught with the books of "history" and I understand its not easy to know the real history of such a huge country and of all its parts...
That's why unfortunately everyone in Russia easily speaks about history of Georgians and even Abkhazians and Osetians, because they have put it in their minds from TV by government, and unfortunately the people like you, who'll at least try to think wisely and regret about what happens, and try to watch to the things from another side as well, such people are in the least minority...
Another point that I would like to rise is: Only country that really benefited from that attack was Iran. Cause israel was planing an attack on Iran from Georgia.
Let's just think who trades with Iran ? Hmm Russians maybe /
Regards Vitas
Obvious noncence, amateur guess, no way IRAN benefits, the situation might stimulate invitation of Georgia to NATO, then Georgia, becomes new plazza-de-arme, for the forthcomming operation, (which most probably would impoverish US) wel, but lets get real here.. here again in LITHUANIA, I can tell you a lot about our successful entry to EU. 1.They dont allow to extend the term for closure of Ignalina Nuclear Plant, we must close it until 2010, it will be an enourmouse shock for the economy. NOW, having patrolled our eastern borders, they wont do it after 2011 we will have to do it on our cost. Lithuanian politicians wants completely brake with Russian GAS (they declare it, but on the other hand they hope Russia will open the pipline called Friendship.. Lithuanian politicians dont want to separate ideology from politics and economics.) They want to win ideologically, politically even if we will loose economically.. NO WAY GEORGIA will become plaza de arme for NATO, because the arosen tension will cost much for both sides, .. they will need to rise Millitary expenditure, or just as they will do here in Lithuania, they will accept Georgia, but on the other hand it will be a tool to silent Saakashvilly, BECAUSE. HERE IN LITHUANIA , NOW EVERYBODY SPEAKS THAT EU IS THE SAME AS CCCP, !!!!:) If you ask anyone in his forties, you will get a their answer of dissapointment ".. we cant prolong the operation of nuclear plant.. yes EU becomes as CCCP.." Regarding NATO.. Georgia will be subbordinated to NATO headquarters. NATO will NOT allow Georgians (or let me say lithuanians..) to WAR.. And who really want to war.. I don't, because I imagine what is the cost. If someone want to measure his strength with RUSSIA he may do that, I wont.. its suicide, and 2nd - no much of moral right, and if you strike first then.. you are the BAD GUY!!!
I told you I told I told you...
The world is becoming THE ONE.. but we will still to face conflicts including those for resources, for ecology. Even PRO-US Reuters, gives the article I provided below... What is the difference, if not the teritorial dependence, but economical starting to play the most important role, because soon the rules will become the same everywhere, we shall live in CCCP which will be not like it was but more "ECONOMICALLY LITERAL" and without IDEOLOGY. It would be like .. Union of Councils, of Republics of socially oriented economics., OK this was SEMI-SERIOUS.. but it should be on humankind agenda anyway.. POLITICIANS SHOULD TALK, BUT WHAT IS A DUTY OF ORDINARY PEOPLE is REFUSE TO FIGHT WARS Ok..about the decline of US influence you can read here:
U.S. grapples with power dive amid financial crisis
Thu Oct 2, 2008 1:25pm EDT
By Sue Pleming - Analysis
WASHINGTON (Reuters) - It may be too soon to write off U.S. economic clout as Germany's finance minister did last month, but experts say a power realignment is taking place in any event with U.S. credibility and popularity at a low.
The notion of America's status as a global superpower has been dented by the financial meltdown but foreign and economic policy experts say U.S. omnipotence had been exaggerated.
"The U.S. remains the dominant global power in military terms but the growing economic clout of nations like Russia, China, India and Brazil is changing that dynamic," said Stephen Flanagan of the Center for Strategic and International Studies, a Washington think-tank.
"The global nature of the economy inevitably means that the United States can't be as dominant as it once was," he said.
How fast the financial fallout, kicked off by a credit crunch, will further diminish U.S. influence is unclear but experts say Washington's response, including a proposed $700 billion bailout plan, will reverberate for decades to come.
"The United States will lose its superpower status in the world financial system. The ... system will become more multi-polar," said German Finance Minister Peer Steinbrueck.
So-called U.S. objective or "hard power" -- military and economic might -- are unlikely to take an immediate hit as it will take a while for U.S. military and other budgets to be affected, said Thomas Carothers, a vice president of the Carnegie Endowment for International Peace.
The immediate impact is more likely to be on Washington's "soft power" as nations no longer look to the United States as a political or economic model.
"Throughout this decade there has been greater questioning of America's political model and now you add to this the sudden crash and there is a deep questioning of America's economic model too," Carothers said.
Academic Francis Fukuyama said with the rise of China, Russia and others, the world was no longer seen in a "unipolar" way where the United States was dominant.
"There will be a generally more multipolar world where you don't have superpowers like in the Cold War," said Fukuyama, a professor at Johns Hopkins University.
One area where the United States would likely lose out in the years to come, he said, was in the "realm of ideas" and innovation, an area where the United States had been dominant but where others are now surging ahead.
Walter Russell Mead of the Council on Foreign Relations said there was an exaggerated view of U.S. power in the 1980s and 1990s and predictions of a U.S. demise were overblown. "The pendulum has swung and now people have an exaggerated view of how it has declined," he said.
CREDIBILITY GAP
Outgoing U.S. administrations usually suffer from a lack of leverage in their waning months and the financial crisis coincides with the Bush administration's attempts to wrap up key issues such as the North Korean nuclear program and to get an elusive Palestinian statehood deal.
Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice has insisted her ability to "do diplomacy" has not been affected by the financial crisis, but the meltdown was a dominant theme during her time at the U.N. General Assembly last week.
Even before the crisis erupted, opinion polls had shown U.S. credibility and popularity down, especially following the decision to invade Iraq in 2003 and topple Saddam Hussein.
The opening of Guantanamo Bay detention center for al Qaeda and Taliban suspects and the Abu Ghraib prison abuse scandal tarnished the image of Washington as champion of human rights.
The Bush administration's democracy agenda has become a source of suspicion, particularly in the Arab world where it is seen as a cover for trying to overthrow governments not seen as toeing the U.S. line.
"The United States is perceived in many countries as almost a rogue state, one that is using unparalleled power to create 'freedom'," Flanagan said.
A U.S. diplomat said he had noticed a difference in how other countries viewed the United States and it made "doing diplomacy" more difficult.
"We have been pursuing a foreign policy which is so arrogant that people don't want to engage us, except for those allies who want to shape our views ... or those who are frightened of us," said the diplomat, who asked not to be identified because his comments were sensitive.
The next U.S. administration -- whether led by Republican Sen. John McCain or Democratic Sen. Barack Obama -- will have to take concrete gestures early on to turn a tide of suspicion, several analysts said.
Foreign policy expert Jon Alterman of the CSIS, said the United States was still the country that mattered most in world affairs even if its power had diminished.
"While the United States is less in control, no one else is in control either," he said.
(Editing by Kristin Roberts and Howard Goller)
Hello! I came to this page by the link from delfi.lt comments on the article about Adamkus' comments of Saakashvili visit in Lithuania. At first, it's nice that I found people from several countries with different attitudes commenting here. I am not an expert in analysing posted videos and won't comment on them, but I wish to give some remarks about your comments.
1. I understand and can not disagree with both positions of Aleksej and Katiee. I like Aleksej inviting for a thought of not one sided view of the recent Russian-Georgia conflict. And I also support the desire of Katiee(though a bit emotional: "shame on you, Russia and Russians") to show how Russia bad in its actions is.
2. Actually, this was what made me to write a comment: "I live in Lithuania and I can say that anyone who states being from my country and supporting Russia - are russians and just due to historical circumstances have Lithuanian citizenship." by Anonymous in September 12, 2008 2:25 AM. and "Seems "levas" is one of the russian propaganda victims" by Giedrius. I am lithuanian and I am against the imperialistic intentions and actions of Russia. But neither Levas, nor other anonymous are supporting Russia in their comments. Please, read again and try to understand what they want to say. Your sayings are an examples of russophobia in Lithuania, which prohibits clearly to think and see things.
3. I like very much the points raised by Anonymous September 19, 2008 2:42 AM.
And about Georgia-Russia conflict I agree with Anonymous in October 1, 2008 6:37 AM.
Adding to: "Russian army in Tunel in Georgia before Sakashvili launched an a attack" - is still not a justification and Saakashvili made a mistake (with respect to georgians and ossetins) by launching an attack.
It would be interesting to discuss, was it at all Saakashvili's own decision to attack. And, if yes or no, what were the goals?
To conclude, it is very sad, that Russia is still having its imperialistic syndrome and wounds by not being a Soviet Union.
Agree: "POLITICIANS SHOULD TALK, BUT WHAT IS A DUTY OF ORDINARY PEOPLE is REFUSE TO FIGHT WARS"
Let's live in peace!
With best regards,
Mindaugas
Mindaugas,
Thank you very much for your interest and comment.
None of us,I mean non of interested parties can be impartial, so you and the people from outside, can judge lots of things and then this makes history.
We hope that the history will not refuse the current status of Georgia as of the state being permanent victim of "great" neighbour, and I also hope that the history will CHANGE this status at last...
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